Great moments in ecumenism: “Adultery is like Protestantism”

Recall:

17.        In considering the principle of gradualness in the divine salvific plan, one asks what possibilities are given to married couples who experience the failure of their marriage, or rather how it is possible to offer them Christ’s help through the ministry of the Church. In this respect, a significant hermeneutic key comes from the teaching of Vatican Council II, which, while it affirms that “although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure … these elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward Catholic unity” (Lumen Gentium, 8).

Tell me, my “separated brothers”, are you feeling affirmed by the excrement coming out of Rome?

13 Responses

  1. Every sin is a perversion of a good. They don’t spring out of nothingness.

  2. “Sure, rapacious greed, arrogance and the desire to win at all costs are less than full expressions of the good, but lets look at the positive elements in such behaviours. Ostentatious displays of wealth affirm that material flourishing is a real good and the desire to utterly crush those beneath you on the way to the top affirms the real virtue of high achievement. The ultimate aim is to use these seeds of goodness to bring people more fully into the church.”

  3. Of course adultery and Protestantism are akin. We don’t need Modernists to teach us or Protestants the Gospel.

    I get it, but it’s impious to call schismatics and heretics to witness against the clergy, no matter what they’ve done.

  4. A couple that my wife and I know recently “experienced the failure of their marriage.” For the husband, the experience began when he found himself having sexual intercourse with another woman. It took him totally by surprise, and it was a nightmare. The experience of having sexual intercourse with that other woman kept recurring, and with increasing frequency, until he eventually experienced himself fighting with his wife and then moving out on her and the three children. I understand that he experienced himself lying very frequently as well. “Marriage failure” is one of those things that just happens, like getting a flat tire or having your house struck by lightening, and all you can say in the end is “that was quite an experience.”

    I’m sure there are exceptions, but the marriage failures I have witnessed were the result of sabotage or careless maintenance, sabotage the evil fruit of lust, careless maintenance the evil fruit of sloth.

  5. I don’t get it. Protestantism, like adultery, cuts one off from the only source of salvation, the Catholic Church, taking the poor sinner to Hell. The ways these two things are different pale by comparison.

    The Conciliar Church talks about these things in a strange and unhelpful way, but that’s not new. So far, I don’t get what the fuss is about. If Francis permits adulterers to receive, then he will have done something new and awful. But he has not done it yet.

  6. I partially retract. Even that won’t really be new. It will simply be a continuation of the Conciliar project. Everyone, including the Church, says they still believe in Transubstantiation. It’s just that nobody acts as if they do. Just look around at a Novus Ordo Mass. This is the same. Sure, we say you should not receive if you are in a state of mortal sin, but, hey, we will just act like we don’t believe it.

  7. Just look around at a Novus Ordo Mass. This is the same. Sure, we say you should not receive if you are in a state of mortal sin, but, hey, we will just act like we don’t believe it.

    Why bring the Novus Ordo Mass into it? It must be different where you are, but all of the TLM Masses I have been to are the same way, the only difference being it simply takes longer to distribute.

  8. The sentence prior to the one you quoted says why—it’s an example of a broader change of which I think the stuff coming out of the synod is just another example. You are saying, I guess, that, where you live, people going to the TLM show up in paint-stained shorts, fail to genuflect, talk loudly before and after Mass, talk less loudly during Mass, all go up to receive, receive in the hand, standing, without showing any gesture of submission beforehand. If true, that makes my case stronger. The TLM is being enriched by the irreverence typical of NO Masses.

    Something explains the strange dual nature of the post-Conciliar period. The Church never quite says that She is changing Her teaching on anything (though She changes the way She talks about Her teaching in a radical fashion). Catholics act like the Church has changed Her teaching on everything. In my comment, I’m speculating that this dual nature is what the Council is about. It has to be about something. This speculation is broadly in line with what the Council’s Popes said it was about—we’re gonna change how we talk about the Faith, they said.

    As for whether this project is prudent or imprudent, I don’t really know for certain, though obviously I think probably imprudent. It is certainly extremely annoying to those who have the Faith and extremely pleasant for those who don’t. It would be prudent, if, for some reason I don’t quite get, souls are being gained on net. Now, I don’t find this very plausible, but I know a lot less than the guys running the show.

  9. You are saying, I guess, that, where you live, people going to the TLM show up in paint-stained shorts, fail to genuflect, talk loudly before and after Mass, talk less loudly during Mass, all go up to receive, receive in the hand, standing, without showing any gesture of submission beforehand.

    Well, no, at my parish, where both the EF and OF are offered every Sunday, people have just about the same amount of reverence at both from my observations. I realize my parish is atypical; what I don’t know is whether the fact that the TLM is offered at the parish causes the parishioners to be reverent even though they never actually even attend the TLM offered at the parish, or whether the people are reverent to begin with and are attracted to a parish where reverence is present, whatever the form of the Mass may be.

    For what it’s worth, I have about the same sentiments as the ones you expressed in the final paragraph of your latest comment, and often ponder the “net souls saved” effect, usually concluding soon after I start pondering that the verdict is well out of reach for me to have any hope of knowing it. A salient question I have (and if we could leave Marty Haugen out of the discussion) is whether, were the form of the Mass never changed, would we have only as many people going to Mass today as are inclined to go to an EF Mass today, and would this be a good thing? When I think about the offenses against the Body and Blood of Christ by what seems obviously to be unworthy reception, I’m tempted to say yes. But then, how many people are attending Mass now who wouldn’t be were not the form changed, whose souls are in the end saved because of it? Then again, how many other souls have been “pastorally neglected” since the changes, and have settled themselves into a schismatic situation because it was the only option they could get themselves to see?

    Thanks for your further clarification, by the way. I hope you don’t think me petulant on the one hand, or fawning on the other, but I enjoy reading whatever you have to say, and am grateful to have gotten you to say more.

  10. I apologize for my abruptness above. You have mildly rebuked me a number of times, including above, when you thought I was straying off the reservation. Whether you are right or wrong, this is a work of mercy on your part directed for my benefit.

    I wrote a 1000 word reply and then decided that it sucked. The other day, I asked my children what prayers they should say if they believe they are about to die. No answer. Seems like something they should have covered in religious ed. Their crayon skills are excellent, though. I’m not complaining here. I can teach them what prayers to say. But, you know, what should I infer? How can it be that the actual practice of the Faith is so incredibly, indescribably bad?

  11. Thanks Bill, though you obviously are not aware of the little seeds of faith you have helped to plant in myself, with your comments hither and yon that are delightfully gruff, but at the same time obviously faithful.

  12. @buckyinky I’ve never been to a TLM where people acted as if they didn’t believe. Went to Father McLucas’s Mass, as well as others north of NYC.

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